Question of the Day (What do you think of this position)

[carerros]

Hey all,

In the first round of the 5 NCGP Points Today #1, Dan and I were paired with me having the white pieces.  I managed to keep in the game and managed my first draw against a 2000 rated player.  (The only other 2000 rated player that I have faced, I lost even thought I had a knight fork that would have given me the win.  Yes I'm still bitter that I missed that).

Anyway, I'm trying to attack a picture here of our position after I moved Qb7 - f3.  I put this all through Fritz, but I was wonder if we could do a type of, question of the day type thing on this position.  With Black to move, what do you think the best move would be?



In this position Dan played 15. ... Qf5 check, where I responded with 16. Bd3 Qxf3 17. Nxf3 Rc5.

So, what do you people out there think?  Was this the best move for Dan and was my responce well planed or is there something better.  In part, I guess we could ask, was my move 15. Qf3 a good move?

Well, lets see how many people actually read these posts.  (I also wanted to see if I was able to post an Image in a post.)

Have fun all,
~charlie

[dan863]

after 15. Qf3 Qf5+ 16. Bd3 Qxf3 17. Nxf3 came 17...Rhc8 18. Rhe1 Kf6 19. c5, and white's b, c, and d-pawns were equal to black's dark-squared bishop, or maybe even better.

[mladen]

First off, I think that Qf3 was your only move. The only other move that does not lose immediately is Qc6, but after Rhc8 you have to play Qf3 anyway, but as a bonus you've helped bring the last black piece into play.

Not going through any long variations, it looks to me like black's main advantage in this position is his lead in development. Therefore, I wouldn't have exchanged the queens, but would look for ways to exploit my better developed army.

Since all of white's king side is still asleep and his king is on the queen side, it makes sense to try and attack immediately. Qa4 comes to mind, attacking c4, thinking about Rb3, followed by Rhb8, and so on.

Like I said, no long variations, just thinking out loud .

[PatrickMcCartney]

Pauler is right about keeping pieces on the board.  I think the right move here for Black is indeed 15...Qa4 and NOT 15...Qf5+

The threat is 16...Rb3 and 17...Qxa3.  White can't play Rd3 because of a Pin with the Bishop (uhm...a lowly Qe2+ by White is nothing).

Unless somebody can come up with a legitimate move for White against 15...Qa4, I have to say Black's significantly better.

However, Dan likes draws, we all know that!  It should be of no shock that 15...Qf5+ would be played with him as Black.

In the last 5 games I've played against Dan, we've had only 1 draw, with 3 of the 4 decisive games going in my favor, including the latest one from this past Saturday, which, by the way, he offered a draw twice, and twice I refused!

The opening and the result should tell you what color I was.

1.b4 e6  2.Bb2 Nf6  3.b5 a6

Black decides to try to flat out eliminate the pawn on b5.  Instead, he should be working around it, and going for the center and Kingside.

4.a4 axb5  5.axb5  Rxa1  6.Bxa1 c6  7.c4 Qa5  8.Bxf6

Damaging the Black pawn structure, and maintaining the strongpoint at b5.

8...gxf6  9.e3 d5  10.cxd5 cxd5

Black can eliminate the b-pawn with 10...exd5, but then his entire Kingside would be a train wreck.

11.Nf3 Nd7  12.Qc2 Kd8

The other possibilities are 12...Bc5, which will make it hard for Black to untangle his pieces, or 12...Nc5, which eliminates the possibility of any ...Bb4 moves, and White can develop the Knight to c3 to add an additional guard to the strongpoint on b5 without it being harassed, and without any threats of an isolated c-pawn at any point.  Therefore, the game move is probably best.

13.Be2 Bd6  14.O-O Ke7  15.Nc3 Ne5  16.Nd4 Bd7  17.f4 Ng6

Forced.  17...Nc4? drops a pawn after 18.Nf5+ exf5 (otherwise 19.Bxc4) 19.Nxd5+ followed by either 20.Bxc4 or 20.Qxc4, depending upon where the King goes.

18.Nb3 Qb6  19.f5 Ne5  20.fxe6 fxe6  21.Nd4

21.Qf5 Qxe3  22.dxe3 exf5  23.Nxd5 is probably somewhat better for White due to the pawn structure.

21...Kf7  22.Bh5 Ng6  23.Bg4 Qc7  24.Nxe6

Taking with the Bishop is possibily better.  24.Bxe6+ Bxe6  25.Nxe6 Bxh2+  26.Kh1 Qe5  27.Nd4 is better for White.  Note that Black can't take the sacrificed piece as 24...Bxe6  25.Bxe6 Kxe6 runs into 26.Rxf6!! Kd7 (all other moves lead to a royal fork or mate) 27.Qf5+ Ke8  28.Qe6+ Be7  29.Nxd5 and White has a won position.

24...Bxh2  25.Kh1 Qe5  26.Ng5

26.d4!! Qd6  27.Qf2+- is far superior.

26...Qxg5  27.Bxd7 Be5  28.Qd3

This is still enough for a slight advantge, but 28.Nxd5 is stronger.

28...Bxc3 29.Qxc3 Qe5  30.d4 Qd6  31.Bh3 Re8  32.Qd3 Re7  33.Qe2 Kg7  34.Bf5 Qg3  35.Rf3 Qh4  36.Rh3 Qg5

36...Qxd4?? loses to 37.Rxh7!! Kg8  38.exd4

37.Bc2 Nf4??

A simple move like 37...Rc7 was equal.  Now White's winning again, and this time, he doesn't look back.

38.Rxh7! Kg8  39.exf4 Rxe2  40.fxg5 Rxc2  41.Rxb7 fxg5  42.Rd7 g4  43.Kh2 Rb2  44.Rxd5 Rb3  45.Rg5 Kf7  46.Rxg4 Rxb5  47.Kg3 Kf6  48.Kf4 Rb1  49.Rg8 Re1  50.Rf8 Ke7  51.Rf5 Rd1  52.Ke4 Kd6  53.Rf6 Ke7  54.Rg6 Ra1  55.Ke5 Re1  56.Kd5 Ra1  57.g4 Rg1  58.Ke5 Re1  59.Kf5 Rf1  60.Kg5 Rd1  61.Rg7

A waste of time, but 2 moves later, in the same position, White plays the right move.  

61...Ke6  62.Rg6 Ke7  63.Rf6! Rxd4

At this point, White had 9 seconds left, Black had less than that.  However, anybody rated 1400 or higher playing White here ought to know how to win this position (and also how to achieve a draw via Philidor's position when being the one down the pawn) like they know how to tie their shoes.   The King is cut off, making Philidor's position impossible for Black to achieve.  Black doesn't have the "short side defense" here, which only works when the pawn is a center pawn or bishop-pawn anyway.  Therefore, the task is simple.  Advance the pawn to the 7th, known as Lucena's position, build a bridge, and cut the rook off from the pawn, followed by promoting the pawn.  Needless to say, White still had 9 seconds left when the game ended.

64.Rf1 Rd5  65.Kg6 Rd6  66.Kh5 Rd2  67.g5 Rh2  68.Kg6 Rh3  69.Kg7 Rg3  70.g6 Rg2  71.Kh7 Rh2  72.Kg8 Rg2  73.g7 Rg3  74.Re1 Kd7  75.Re4 Kd6  76.Kf7 Rf3  77.Kg6 Rg3  78.Kf6 Rf3  79.Kg5 Rg3  80.Rg4 1-0

[carerros]

Hey Guys,

First, I'm glad that someone is reading this and willing to post some options.  After looking at this position, becuase I think this was more critical possition then when I pushed my c pawn, I saw the interesting move for Black.  I was thinking about Bd2!!.

What do you guys think of that as an option?  I was thinking that White's only reply would be b4 where Black could then sac his bishop on b4 and then obtain a strong attack.  Am I way off on this option. 

Oh, and I don't think I posted the entire game so here it is: 

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. Bg5 Ne4 5. Nxe4 dxe4 6. e3 Bg7 7. Qc2 c5 8. O-O-O cxd4 9. exd4 Qa5 10. Bxe7 Kxe7 11. Qxe4+ Be6 12. Qxb7+ Nd7 13. a3 Bh6+ 14. Kb1 Rab8 15. Qf3 Qf5+ 16. Bd3 Qxf3 17. Nxf3 Rhc8 18. Rhe1 Kf6 19. c5 Bb3 20. Bc2 Bf8 21. Bxb3 Rxb3 22. Nd2 Rb5 23. Ne4+ Kg7 24. Rc1 Nf6 25. Nd6 Bxd6 26. cxd6 Rxc1+ 27. Rxc1 Rd5 28. Rc7 a5 29. Rc4 Rxd6 30. b4 axb4 31. axb4 Nd5 1/2-1/2

Thanks,
~charlie

[dan863]

15...Bd2! wins for black.  the game would have continued 15...Bd2! 16. b4 Bxb4 17. axb4 Qxb4+ 18. Kc2 Bf5+ 19. Bd3 Qb2#

dan

[JLawson]

Charlie,


Here is my two cents. You can take it with a grain of salt, but this is my own analysis of the position. After you played Qf3, I believe Black has a strong attack with Rxb2+!. And if Kxb2 Rb8+ where as white has 3 possibilities. So lets consider them: 1. If Ka2 then Bg4! is a bone in whites throat and should win due to the fact that the Queen either has to take the Bishop and lose the 3rd rank (which has to be protected by the threat of Qc3!) and Qe5+ does nothing. If Qxg4, then Qc3! and I dont think there is anyway to stop mate. Now, lets look at scenario 2: After Rxb2+ Kxb2 Rb8+ and Ka1 then again Bg4! is a win for Black again threatning Qc3+! followed by mate. And if instead of Ka1 and white instead played Kc2 then Qa4+ wins. Now I could be wrong, since im not using any Rybka help or what not, but from my own self analysis, this is what I saw at first glance. If im wrong guys, then im sorry for posting a dumb reply to this post. I have been out of the loop for awhile, but I hope my tactical sense is still there.  See you guys on April 17th.

[JLawson]

Ha ha, I was wrong about one possibility: Ka2 is really whites only defense to Rxb2+. After Bg4?? White can simply equalize with Qxg4 Qc3 then Qe2+ afterwards saving the game, but if Qa4 first, then white really has some complications. After Qa4  whites only defense is Qc3 where Black can play the crushing Nc5!! and if dxc5 Bg7!!

I hope this helps.

[carerros]

Hey Josh,

So, from the position below you suggest a quick Rook sac by Black:

15 ... Rxb2+ 16.  Kxb2 Rb8+ 17. Kb2. 

From here I'm not a fan of the 17. ... Bg4 move by Black.  You marked it with a ?? for good reason.

I think the 17. ... Qa4 line is best.  You wrote that 18. Qc3 is the only defense for this however, Black just replied with 18. ... Qxd1.  This creates the mate threat on b1 (with Qb1#) so White has to defend that somehow.  19. Qa1 would lose to 19. ... Qc2+ 20. Qb2 Qxb2#)  In fact any queen move by White is just losing.  The only other piece that White can call upon to defend with is 19. Bd3.  However this position also loses to 19. ... Bf5! 20. Bxf5 (forced) gxf5  Here White needs to prevent Black from playing Qb1# but the only way to do so is to sac the queen by playing 21. Qb4+ (all other moves just hang the queen for nothing) 21. ... Rxb4 22. axb4. 

In this position there is no immediate mate threat however, White's two remaining pieces are being pinned by the black queen and he has plenty of time to bring his remaining knight and bishop to bear.

The sad part in all of this is that I played White and was clearly losing but didn't realize it at the time of the game.  I thought I had played a really good game against Dan and it turns out that he just missed two lines that would have immediately defeated me.  But I guess that is the advantage of OTB play.  You only have so much time to evaluate the positions which allows an underdog like me to luck out a bit and then play to a solid draw.

[JLawson]

Charlie, actually I just put this on Rybka and my analysis was correct!


After Rxb2+ Kxb2 Rb8+ and if Ka2 then Qa4! and if Qc3 then Nc5!! is the best move. Of course taking the Rook is also good (duh) Rybka gives white a +9 if Black plays Nc5 rather than only a +6 if Black takes on d1. The same thing goes for if White rather plays Kc2 after Rb8+ in which Black should play Qa4+ which wins instantly. What I meant by Qc3, is that it was the only move that delayed mate, but still loses badly due to: Rxb2+ Kxb2 Rb8+ Ka2 Qa4 Qc3 Qxd1 then white can play Bd3 and stop mate for a few moves but is still dead lost.

So I think my analysis was pretty good for a 4am glance at the position. Good job on drawing your first Expert by the way. Keep up the good work.